Thursday, March 13, 2008

Cutting off fingers

Today, LGF passed on the story of how Jihadists cut the fingers off of their innocent hostages.

What is even more disturbing than Jihadist degenerates cutting off the fingers of innocent hostages, however, is the total silence of all those America-hating Leftists who so self-righteously, and endlessly condemned America's waterboarding of three terrorists! Apparently, in the minds of the Left, it is a horror beyond belief to waterboard terrorists, but no big deal when our enemies cut fingers off innocent people!

20 comments:

Robert said...

I don't really think you can relate the two. Terrorists are terrorists based on the nature of their actions. If this was another legitimate government we were at war with, I think you might have a point in contrasting the way they conduct holding prisoners of war with us. However, no one is suprised when terrorists act like animals and their actions in holding prisoners don't necessarily justify ours.

The argument as I see it, is how we should legally conduct our actions as a legitmate and ethical government. The area we need to define is what is to be considered torture and when (if ever) it is acceptable to be used. It should be tightly defined and its use highly limited to prevent the government's continued creep on individual rights from allowing it to use it on citizens for more mundane purposes.

My first inclination is to always distrust the government, its motives, and its actions. In the war on terror, I do believe there are times where the use of torture is acceptable and necessary, but the water mark must be set very high so that it can never become part of daily practice.

Brent said...

You really hit the nail on the head here. The left really does hate this country. (I guess someone will have to explain how it pains us so much when it goes in the wrong direction, though.) And we really enjoy hearing about terrorists dismembering innocent people.

I've read a lot of asinine things on this blog, but this might top them all.

Dennis said...

One of my pet peaves is the way the Left in this country are so quick to jump on and endlessly condemn every real or imagined injustice ever committed by Americans, while at the same time remaining virtually silent about the thousands of FAR worse atrocities regularly taking place all over the world.

Criticising America is a very American thing to do. But ONLY criticising America while pretty much ignoring all the atrocities committed by other countries is, in my opinion very anti-American and, yes, I think many on the far Left who do it really do hate this country.

Brent said...

Believe me, I see what you're doing, no explanation needed. It's a continuation of the game you were playing in a previous discussion: everyone you disagree with must denounce everything that's wrong in the world, otherwise they must be in favor of it and are bad people. Well, I come here for the wingnut perspective, and I guess I'm getting my money's worth.

______________________________________
"The House Republican brand is so bad right now that if it were a dog food, they’d take it off the shelf."
Rep. Thomas M. Davis III (R-VA)

Dennis said...

Brent, some American soldiers humiliate a few terrorists at Abu Ghraib prison and for literally months the media obsesses over it.

Then we find out that the CIA has waterboarded 3 very dangerous terrorists and again the media spends months on the topic. And in both cases, the underlying implication is how terrible and horrible the United States is.

But when our enemies CUT OFF THE FINGERS of innocent hostages, we hear absolutely nothing from the Left and almost nothing from the media! When the cut off innocent hostages' heads or torture people to death or rape women, we still hear almost nothing by the media. Most Americans are not even aware that these things are going on!

The result is that we teach a whole generation of Americans that Iran is right, America really is the Great Satan and they should hate America!

I think our press is right to bring to light the injustices committed by Americans. But this needs to be put in a larger context of the atrocities committed by the rest of the world.

This is not a hard point to grasp--I'm just asking for a more fair and balanced coverage--and I really can't see how anyone can be opposed to it--unless they just hate America!

Robert said...

I think where the Doc is getting upset Brent is that we seldom hear anything from our leftist elected officials regarding terrorist actions or the necessity to respond to them. However, those same officials frequently exploit for political purposes the mistakes or violations we commit. Their message is picked up by the media and it presents this lopsided view where all that is seen is "America is bad." It has a negative impact on the national stage.

I don't expect all leftists to go and denounce every action committed by a terrorist group. However, it'd be refreshing to see our elected left show some backbone against terrorism. It’d be nice if they’d stop bashing the United States when something bad happens in light of the fact that they have a means to correct problems in a way that won't cause a political firestorm. Instead, they use things like Abu Ghraib for months or years to beat up on the administration. They don't seem to be concerned as much with preventing something like that from happening again as they are in using it as a political weapon.

I'm not suggesting they cover anything up or bury something, but they also don't need to make it into a big stink when they have the power to help correct problems. We elect them to lead and I believe that includes promoting the United States offshore. When they deliberately seek to damage their political opponents in a way that they know will hurt us internationally, I think it shows a general lack of concern for the country and comes off as anti-American.

Promoting America shouldn't be only something you do when you're in power regardless of whether you agree with our policy or not.

Brent said...

Regarding the media: As I write this, the featured story on CNN.com is entitled " 'Signs of torture' you can't imagine". It's about Iraqi women trying to live their lives without husbands who were tortured/killed. (link: http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/meast/
03/12/iraq.women/index.html) I strongly reject the notion of a "liberal media," but I know CNN is one outlet that you would put in that group. And that's just one example of a story being featured at this very minute. I see stories like this relatively often (whether they're features or simple news reports). I don't get the impression that you read/watch news that isn't Fox News or other conservative commentary, so I don't even know how qualified you are to speak to what is or isn't being reported. Perhaps I'm wrong. But either way, as you point out, it's important that everything relevant be reported, whether it's something committed by terrorists or Americans. But perhaps we feel more shock when the Americans do it because we believe ourselves to be the "good guys".

Regarding politicians: You're right, politicians do have the ability to fix things. To an extent. Unfortunately, the Bush administration and Republicans in Congress block attempts to do just that (such as President's veto of the torture bill last week, just one recent example). Sometimes the only way to get something done is to get the public on your side, which is part of the reason "a big stink" is sometimes made. (Sure, politics may have something to do with it at times as well - everything a politician does is related to politics in some way.) Unfortunately, the White House and their friends in Congress couldn't care less what the public thinks, so it doesn't really help. As far as denouncing terrorism goes: I think we can all agree that terrorists are the bad guys, that's why they're the enemy. Do you really want us to sit around pointing out how bad the bad guys are, or should we focus our time and effort on defeating them? The right is far too concerned with rhetoric and symbolism (another example: everyone must wear a silly lapel pin or they aren't patriotic) than substance. Substance is what gets something done.

______________________________________
"The House Republican brand is so bad right now that if it were a dog food, they’d take it off the shelf."
Rep. Thomas M. Davis III (R-VA)

Dennis said...

The media spends literally months and months on how terrible America was because of Abu Ghraib and Gitmo, but because CNN does a story on torture you think you've made your case? Please!

Do you realize that the media spent more time obsessing over the humiliation of a few terrorists at Abu Ghraib than about all the following stories put together:

The slavery, torture and mass murder of millions of innocent people in Darfur, the honor killings in Pakistan, the shelling of innocent Israelis, the stoning and cutting off of limbs in Iran, the subjegation of women in Saudi Arabia, the mass starvation of an entire nation in North Korea, the slaughter of entire villages in Indonesia, the religous persecution in China, the violence against Christians in Nigeria, the violence by Hindu extremists in India, the harrassment and arrest of the Hmong people Laos and Vietnam, the sex slavery rings in Thailand and elsewhere, the unbelievable violence by drug cartels in Venezuela and Columbia, the kidnappings in Mexico...I mean the list could go on and on.

The result is that Americans...and the world...get the impression that out of all the nations of the world, America is the Great Satan! And the Left in the media, hollywood and our public school system seem only too eager to propogate that view! Too many on the Left seem to agree with Michelle Obama that there is nothing about America to be proud of, and too many Americans are so ignorant of American history and of what is going on in the world, that they actually agree with her!

You said perhaps we feel more shock when Americans do it. How could anyone feel MORE shock when the media doesn't even bother to tell us all the atrocites going on elsewhere? And by "media" I'm including Fox News too!

And while we're at it, we could talk about our public school system. To give just one example: Our education system almost seems to have left Americans with the impression that slavery was invented in America! Most Americans don't have a clue that slavery has been around in just about every society for thousands of years or that Muslims actually enslaved millions more people than the west, or that it was Chrisians from England and America who rose up to put a stop to it. Instead, slavery is usually viewed as a particularly American atrocity!

And again, the over all effect is to leave Americans and the world with the impression that America really is the Great Satan of the world. And that impression tends to undermine and weaken our entire nation! After all, why fight against the bad guys if we think that we are just as bad as everyone else? That attitude is a result of deplorable ignorance about the state of the rest of the world, and the blame for this falls directly at the feet of many on the Left! One might almost get the impression that some are deliberately trying to undermine and weaken America!

Brent said...

There's really no way to have a rational discussion with you, I'm not sure why I bother, and I can see why most people don't. Yes, there are things wrong with some of the institutions you mention. But you're so caught up in some kind of leftist/Hollywood/homosexual/public school/media conspiracy against your political party and our country that it would be laughable if it weren't so sad. Maybe you enjoy playing the victim, I don't know. But I almost feel sorry for you.

Dennis said...

This has nothing to do with my political party, much less some conspiracy theory. But I guess the fact that you resort to personal attacks against me means you don't really have a good, rational response.

I really can't understand why anyone (except enemies of America) should disagree with me on this. All I'm asking for is fairness and balance.

Brent said...

I have plenty of rational arguments, but as I said, I really don't see the point. I guess you can make of that what you want. You say you just want balance - I believe there is more balance than you think, and if the media and many of us are more reflective on the mistakes of this country than you are willing to be, then I don't have a problem with that. And I think that's all I'll have to say on this issue.

L'oiseau said...

Two things.

When you constantly insult half of the country (the oh-so-evil Left) aren't you doing the exact same thing? You are berating America.

I am confused as to how this is even an issue. We need to be keeping OUR country in check. OF COURSE the terrorists are going to do horrible things and OF COURSE we are ALL horrified by it, but the fact is, the only thing we can really do something about is our own country (I realize I'm talking to some right-wing extremists, so you might beg to differ there, but oh well:) and so we are frustrated when Americans sink to the level of terrorists, even when dealing with terrorists.

L'oiseau said...

I agree that I think it is disgusting that the media did not spend much time on the atrocities in Darfur, and the other things you mentioned in that list, but I wonder why it is that when Americans go overseas, they are despised by virtually every country out there. I highly doubt that is because of our education system. Just a thought.

Dennis said...

l'oiseau,

I wrote, "America-hating Leftists." I didn't mean all Leftists. I really don't think everyone on the Left hates America.

For example, I do not think the Clintons or Obama hate America (I think their policies would be very destructive to America, but I don't think they hate America.

But I do think there is a significant number of people on the Left who really do hate America.

You said you were "confused as to how this is even an issue."

Actually, I think you answered that for me when you wrote, "I agree that I think it is disgusting that the media did not spend much time on the atrocities in Darfur, and the other things you mentioned in that list,"

That was my point. I have nothing against criticizing America, but I get tired of the relentless America bashing when it is rarely, if ever placed in the context of all the other nations of the world. When we just look at the evils in America, it looks like a pretty horrible place. When we compare America's evils (past and present) the those of most other countries, America suddenly seems remarkably good by comparsion. I think the media and our education system need to start putting criticism of America in the broader multi-cultural context.

L'oiseau said...

I believe that all of the nations on this earth are full of evil, despicable things happening, none of them really worse or better than the others. I live in America, and so that's the nation I have "control" over, so to speak, to change it.

Dennis said...

loiseau,

You wrote, "I believe that all of the nations on this earth are full of evil, despicable things happening,"

I certainly agree with that, but you went on to say,

none of them really worse or better than the others.

I really disagree with that one.
In some cultures women can be beaten, imprisoned, or killed if they simply show their face or appear in public with a man.
In some cultures women are forcibly being "circumcised." In some countries, people are being kidnapped, raped, tortured or slaughtered by the thousands (e.g. Sudan). If none of the nations are any better, or worse, and the others, why is it that so many millions of people have risked their lives to come to the United States?

You wrote, "I live in America, and so that's the nation I have "control" over, so to speak, to change it."

I understand that and I agree that it makes sense so some extent. I think you're right that we should spend more time getting our own house in order before we nit-pick on everyone else's house.

But our news media and education system focus so extensively on the injustices of American--and so absolutly ignore the horrible atrocities going on in the rest of the world, it leaves the impression, not only in America, but in the rest of the world as well, that America really is the Great Satan. This is a terrible lie that it is damaging to Americans and it is not good for the world either.

L'oiseau said...

I am just as disgusted that the media doesn't spend enough time focusing on atrocities like Sudan.

I think that the media is seen to have more control over the lives of people than it actually does. As you said, people are coming here faster than they are leaving, so if the media want to rant and rave, let them. Many people are using the internet nowadays and getting the full reports from multiple outlets.

I suppose if you want to compare governments and laws, then America can be seen to be "better", but women are tortured, slaughtered, raped, and beaten in America probably just as much in other countries, just not legally. That's what I was thinking when I said we are not better or worse than others.

Dennis said...

l'oiseau,

You wrote, "but women are tortured, slaughtered, raped, and beaten in America probably just as much in other countries, just not legally."

I'm sure women do just as well in Canada, Australia, France, Norway, England, Germany etc. as they do in America.

But I would invite you to go live in Pakistan, Afghanistan, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Gaza, Syria etc. and then come back and tell me how American women are treated just as bad.

In Saudi Arabia you couln't even drive a car! In several countries if you were to appear in public without a veil you would be beaten!

L'oiseau said...

I know:)

I'm trying to make a point about sin that is possibly entirely irrelevant. I'm saying that from a Christian perspective, our countries still all have the same amount of sin in them, it is sometimes just expressed differently. We don't disagree about the difference in human rights within the government at all :)

Dennis said...

Ahhh, well, if we are just saying with the Apostle Paul that "all have sinned and come short of the glory of God" then I am in complete agreement! :-)